Hello everyone, and welcome to another Tuesday and another preview chapter from Rhythm of War! We’ve only got ONE MORE to go until the full release… are you excited? I know I am! Are you planning on attending the digital book release party? I have it on good authority that it’s going to be a fun time, so if you haven’t already, check out the information on how to attend here!
This week, Kaladin’s family arrives at Urithiru. Join in the discussion in the comment section below, and remember to be considerate of those avoiding spoilers in other places online!
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entirety of the series up until now—if you haven’t read ALL of the published entries of the Stormlight Archive, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
In this week’s discussion we also discuss god metals in the Fabrials section, which is a Thing we learned from Mistborn, but we don’t explain anything about them so you’ll probably be safe even if you haven’t read those books.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Kaladin
WHERE: Urithiru, Narak
WHEN: Day 20 or 21 (Rock & Co. left “nearly four weeks ago” on Day 2)
Kaladin takes a little day trip over to the Shattered Plains to meet up with the caravan arriving from Hearthstone. He gives his parents a tour of Urithiru, and shows them the surgical room he’s prepared for Lirin.
Overall Reactions
A: Well, and here we are: Hearthstone arrives at Urithiru! To the relief (presumably) of those who feared disaster during the voyage of the Fourth Bridge, it has arrived at Narak, safe and sound, guarded by Windrunners and Edgedancers. Nineteen days on a flying boat couldn’t be exactly comfortable, but it’s over now, and the Oathgate brings them all to the Tower.
Needless to say, this also brings Kaladin back together with his family—which is the focus of most of the chapter.
“Disrespectful of lighteyed authority,” Hesina said, “and generally inclined to do whatever he wants, regardless of social class or traditions. Where in Roshar did he get it?” She glanced at Kaladin’s father, who stood by the wall inspecting the lines of strata.
“I can’t possibly imagine,” Lirin said.
A: I know this is an unpopular sentiment, but I like Lirin. While I don’t always agree with his opinions, I do like him as a person. His sense of humor, in particular, appeals to me.
L: I’ll begrudgingly give you that one. He has a very sarcastic, almost British sense of humor and it does play very well off of Hesina’s.
A: I love the way he and Hesina play off one another; to me, it shows the depth of affection and understanding of a mature married couple who, despite their personality differences, wouldn’t ever want to be with anyone else. (Part of the reason I like Lirin & Hesina so much is that they remind me of my parents—after 60+ years of marriage, they still teased each other like this. Mom was the “silly” one who laughed easily at any little thing, and Dad was the one with the dry humor who rarely laughed out loud. I miss them.)
L: I see where you’re coming from, but I still don’t like him. He’s emotionally abusive of his son, and Hesina allows it to continue. I can understand why he acts the way he does, but I don’t agree with him or his methods. I don’t like him as a person, though I allow that he’s a good, believable character (much like Moash).
A: Hmm. I disagree about the “emotionally abusive” part, but I don’t think this is the chapter to talk about it, so I won’t go there.
L: Pretty safe to say that we’re still going to be on either side of this argument, seeing as how we were for the entirety of the beta too. Healthy debate time!
“Lirin surgically removed his sense of humor,” Hesina said.
“Got good money for it on the open market too,” Lirin said.
…
Kaladin leaned against the wall, feeling a familiar peace at their banter. Once, having them close again would have been nearly everything he wanted. Watching Lirin obsess. Hearing Hesina trying to get him to pay attention to the people around him. The fond way Lirin took the jokes, playing into them by being comically stern.
A: I won’t dive into all the arguments I’ve had over this, but I would suggest accepting Kaladin’s word for it. There is genuine love and affection in this family, despite differences of opinion.
L: Love doesn’t preclude the presence of emotional abuse.
A: As noted above, this isn’t the right chapter to debate this, IMO. But I do have Arguments Against.
Exam table. A glistening set of the finest instruments, including equipment Kaladin’s father had never been able to afford: scalpels, a device for listening to a patient’s heartbeat, a magnificent fabrial clock, a fabrial heating plate for boiling bandages or cleansing surgical tools.
…
“I ordered in the best from Taravangian’s physicians,” Kaladin said. “You’ll need to have Mother read to you about some of these newer medications—they’re discovering some remarkable things at the hospitals in Kharbranth. They say they’ve found a way to infect people with a weak, easily overcome version of a disease—which leaves them immune for life to more harsh variants.”
Lirin seemed… solemn. More than normal. Despite Hesina’s jokes, Lirin did laugh—he had emotions. Kaladin had seen them from him frequently. To have him respond to all of this with such quietude . . .
He hates it, Kaladin thought. What did I do wrong?
A: You can just about feel Kaladin’s confusion here. He worked hard—and I’m really impressed with his thoughtfulness and thoroughness—to make this everything his parents and their people would need. Lirin’s reaction is puzzling, to say the least… until you think way back to Chapter 3, when Lirin was enthusing about the possibility of using airships to provide mobile hospitals for battlefields, and Dalinar casually mentioned that Edgedancers do most of the field medicine these days. Apparently that’s been on his mind.
L: Also worth noting is that Roshar is making strides towards discovery of vaccines!
A: Right? Very cool. Also, I’d like to point out that this was written long before anyone ever heard of Covid-19, thank you very much. This is not an intentional commentary on current events. (It was in the beta, which we were reading in early February, so… yeah. Proof.)
L: It’s fascinating how many parallels to modern events you may wind up seeing in later chapters, though (and not in the ways you might think). That’s all I’ll say on that. Just keep in mind as you’re reading in two weeks that, as Alice said, all of this was written in the Before Times.
“It is very nice, son,” he said softly. “But I don’t see the use of it anymore.”
“What?” Kaladin asked. “Why?”
“Because of what those Radiants can do,” Lirin said. “I saw them healing with a touch! A simple gesture from an Edgedancer can seal cuts, even regrow limbs. This is wonderful, son, but… but I don’t see a use for surgeons any longer.”
Hesina leaned in to Kaladin. “He’s been moping about this the whole trip,” she whispered.
“I’m not moping,” Lirin said. “To be sad about such a major revolution in healing would be not only callous, but selfish as well. It’s just…” Lirin took a deep breath. “I guess I’ll need to find something else to do.”
Storms. Kaladin knew that exact emotion. That loss. That worry. That sudden feeling of becoming a burden.
A: Not quite what one might expect them to bond over, eh? But Kaladin’s empathy for his father’s perspective is… well, hopeful, for me. As much as they’ve been at odds, for Kaladin to understand Lirin’s feeling here makes me think they can help one another.
L: Yeah. It’s a shame Lirin can’t display that same level of empathy towards his son’s choices.
“Father,” Kaladin said, “we have fewer than fifty Edgedancers—and just three Truthwatchers. Those are the only orders that can heal.”
Lirin looked up, cocking his head.
“… Most of the time those Edgedancers are serving on the battlefront, healing soldiers. The few on duty in Urithiru can be used for only the most dire of wounds.
“Plus their powers have limitations. … You’re not obsolete. Trust me, you’re going to be very, very useful here.”
Lirin regarded the room again, seeing it with new eyes. He grinned, then—possibly thinking he shouldn’t take joy in the idea that people would still need surgeons—stood up. “Well then! I suppose I should familiarize myself with this new equipment. Medications that can prevent diseases, you say? What an intriguing concept.”
A: And Kaladin’s response works. We’ve talked occasionally about Lirin knowing what buttons to push on Kaladin, but it goes both ways. That’s what happens when you know people really well.
L: It’s very sweet to see Kaladin pushing those buttons to help bring his father’s spirits up!
A: The possibilities for Lirin, Hesina, and the rest of Hearthstone fitting in with the new Urithiru economy… this all makes me happy. I didn’t quote it, but earlier Kaladin mentioned that the place is full of soldiers, but has a dearth of people who know their way around a farm; this was part of how he’d convinced Dalinar that it would be worth the effort to bring all of the village residents back to the Tower. This move toward a functional, self-sufficient society is delightfully hopeful.
“I’m going to be leaving the military,” Kaladin said. “I need a break from the fighting, and Dalinar commanded it. So I thought maybe I would take the room beside Oroden’s. I . . . might need to find something different to do with my life.”
Hesina raised her hand to her lips again. Lirin stopped dead, going pale, as if he’d seen a Voidbringer. Then his face burst with the widest grin Kaladin had ever seen on him. He strode over and seized Kaladin by the arms.
“That’s what this is about, isn’t it?” Lirin said. “The surgery room, the supplies, that talk of the clinic. You’ve realized it. You finally understand that I’ve been right. You’re going to become a surgeon like we always dreamed!”
A: This… kind of breaks my heart. It’s lovely, in a way, but it also shows how much Lirin no longer actually knows his son. Maybe he never really did, because there’s always been the side of Kaladin with that affinity for the spear, which Lirin never acknowledged or accepted.
L: Yeah. This is heartbreaking. Not being able to accept who your children really are isn’t a good thing. I can understand why he’s so overjoyed, but he’s letting his desire for his son to be following in his footsteps to overshadow his observational skills as to what it’s doing to Kaladin emotionally. It should be clear to anyone with eyes (as is evident by the fact that Bridge Four keeps checking in on him) that Kaladin’s really not in a good place. An empathic person would see this and try to temper their joy, to determine if this is really what Kaladin wants. But Lirin is so focused on what he wants for his son, that he’s overlooking the fact that Kaladin might be doing this not strictly of his own free will, or doing it to the detriment of what he really wants. I’m reminded of stories of people who are pressured to take over the family business when their true passions lie in other areas. It rarely ends well. (With the exception of It’s a Wonderful Life, I suppose.) (I’m sorry, now that I’ve made this mental connection, now all I can imagine is Syl chirping “every time a bell rings, a spren gets her wings!” and I’m cracking up.)
A: To be fair to Lirin, Kaladin has not shown his parents much of his depression, at least not on screen. Should they be able to see through his excitement about showing them what he’s set up, in this scene? We get to see his internal reluctance, but I don’t think he’s showing them much.
L: That’s a fair point.
That was the answer, of course. The one Kaladin had been purposely avoiding. He’d considered the ardents, he’d considered the generals, and he’d considered running away.
The answer was in the face of his father, a face that a part of Kaladin dreaded. Deep down, Kaladin had known there was only one place he could go once the spear was taken from him.
A: What a bitter turn to a hopeful moment. It’s sad, and discouraging, to see Kaladin accept this solution with such reluctant resignation.
L: Because it’s not what he really wants. It’s never been what he really wanted. Helping people on a tiny, one-on-one basis is admirable, but he wants to save hundreds. Thousands.
A: Even so, there’s still hope that he can find meaning, and a way to continue his ideals of protection, through a different path than before.
What are your expectations, folks? Is this going to work out well, or is his reluctance going to doom the effort from the start? What will happen?
Syl-logisms
A: Yeah, we need this one again. Syl was her usual sparkling self this week, but a few moments stand out:
“Your surprises,” Kaladin said, “are never fun.”
“I put a rat in his boot,” Syl whispered. “It took me forever. I can’t lift something so heavy, so I had to lead it with food.”
“Why in the Stormfather’s name,” Lirin said, “would you put a rat in his boot?”
“Because it fit so well!” Syl said. “How can you not see how great the idea was?”
A: While the Dad part of me sympathizes with Lirin’s response, the Mom part is giggling like mad over this whole scene as it plays out in my head.
L: Classic element of physical comedy.
“I didn’t know there were so many books in the world,” Syl said. “Won’t they use up all the words? Seems like eventually you’d say everything that could be said!”
A: LOL! Fortunately for us, there’s always a new way to combine the words, and they don’t wear out with the using.
L: One of my literature professors in college told me once, “there are only five stories in the world, but infinite ways to tell them.”
A: Nice. I’d be curious what the five are… but probably not in this context!
L: I wish I could remember them all, I know one was “a stranger comes to town.”
“There’s a space for the baby here, and I picked out the toys, because Kaladin would probably have bought him a spear or something dumb.”
A: She’s not wrong, you know. I mean, maybe not a spear, but it’s hard to imagine Kaladin picking out baby toys! Also, her attitude when she talks about Kaladin is a joy to behold—in a different way than when she talks to him. Both are wonderful, just … very different. As relationships often go.
L: Her teasing comes from a place of love, and I am confident that if Kaladin ever told her that she was being legitimately hurtful, that she would stop.
A: You’re right on that point… unless for some reason she was certain that the pain she was causing was necessary for him. Kaladin knows that, IMO—Syl is always and forever on his side.
Humans
Rock’s family, Skar, and Drehy had left nearly four weeks ago. They’d sent word a single time via spanreed, soon after their departure, noting that they’d arrived.
A: I’ll admit, I find it moderately disturbing that they haven’t sent any word since they arrived. It could just mean that there hasn’t been anything important enough to bother spanreeding about it, right? But … the note on which Rock departed was so portentous, I can’t quite convince myself.
L: I really hope that we get this story, someday. It feels to me like we will!
A: My big hope is that this story will be the Stormlight Archive 4.5 novella. While I’m not big on claiming “the author promised!” something I want, it does seem that Brandon has given us indications for this one.
Under Jasnah’s new inheritance laws, Laral would gain the title of citylady, so she’d gone to be formally greeted by Jasnah.
A: Hoooo boy. Jasnah’s proposal to free all the slaves seems to be just one of a series of changes to Alethi social structures! On the one hand, I wholeheartedly approve the idea of leaving the woman who probably did all the administration in charge, rather than booting her out and giving the position to some random stranger who “deserves” it—or equally awful, forcing her to marry some jerk in order to retain anything of her life when her husband dies. On the other hand, this does set up an even more feudal situation, where the position stays in the family whether they’re doing the job well or not. Not that I have a better solution for the Alethi in this moment, mind you; someone is going to be in charge, and there are a lot of terrible ways to decide who that is. Leaving it in the hands of someone trained to the task is certainly one of the less terrible ways.
L: Allowing women to pursue and attain positions of power is absolutely a step in the right direction. It’s a long road out of feudalism, to be sure.
A: I do look forward to seeing more of Jasnah’s restructuring, whether in this book or others. It will be interesting to see how successful she is in remaking her culture! Of course, there has to be an Alethkar left to remake, so… we’ll see.
Bruised & Broken
He hadn’t yet told them he planned to do something else—though he had to decide today what that would be. Dalinar still wanted him to become an ambassador. But could Kaladin really spend his days in political negotiations? No, he’d be as awkward as a horse in a uniform standing in a ballroom and trying not to step on women’s dresses.
L: It’s good that he recognizes that this isn’t the right path for him. Better than trying to do it and winding up even more miserable, feeling like a failure…
A: I can’t quite figure out why Dalinar wants Kaladin, of all people, to be an ambassador. It’s so not his skill set! He doesn’t have that ability to see the other person’s perspective yet, and you really need that for negotiations.
L: Doesn’t he? He’s always displayed a great deal of empathy for the other side. Look at how he reacts to being called out on his interactions with women, and Rlain. Look at how he reacts to the Singers he traveled with in Oathbringer.
A: With both Lyn and Rlain, he had to have it shoved in his face that his solution for them was not what they wanted. And I’d argue that the singers he empathizes with are those who are in a very familiar situation to what he’s come out of. He understands situations he’s already been in; that doesn’t give him any ability to understand the person he doesn’t already relate to in some way.
L: That’s a fair point. He didn’t come to those realizations on his own, for the most part, unless they’re very similar to what he’s already experienced. Also… he is stubborn to a fault (::cough reactions to lighteyes cough::). I’d think that Adolin would be a much more effective ambassador, personally. (And think of all the different fashion choices he could experiment with!)
A: LOL. I agree wholeheartedly. Adolin has both the training and the personality to see things from someone else’s perspective. (At least… when he isn’t emotionally involved, like with Sadeas…) He’d make a much better ambassador than Kaladin. Negotiations don’t usually go well if the other person has to whack you over the head with their personal motivations.
L: I concede this point to you!
I’ll miss this, he thought, then immediately felt foolish. He wasn’t dying. He was retiring. He would still fly. To pretend otherwise was self-pity. Facing this change with dignity was difficult, but he would do it.
L: Another good sign. He hasn’t given up. He’s still fighting. And he still has flying, which is an outlet and a source of joy for him.
A: Absolutely. I can’t help thinking that as long as he has Syl and he can fly, he’ll be able to work through the rest of it.
Geography
A: Is this an okay place to put odd observations about Urithiru itself? Because this makes no sense to me:
He ducked under a strange outcropping of stone in the hallway. Urithiru had numerous such oddities; this one was round, a stone tube crossing the center of the hallway. Perhaps it was ventilation? Why had it been put right where people walked?
A: Seriously, why?
L: I can’t think of what this could possibly be, either.
A: Kaladin has a later comment that fits my thinking too:
One might have called the arrangement mad, but even at its most baffling, hints of design—such as crystal veins running along the corners of rooms, or places where strata wove to form patterns reminiscent of glyphs set into the wall—made Kaladin think this place was purposeful and not haphazard. These oddities had been built for reasons they couldn’t yet fathom.
A: I’m positive that everything in Urithiru was built that way for a reason. Unfortunately, all too often Sanderson will drop in something like this and then just leave it for a book or two. How long will it be before we find out why there’s a stone tube across a hallway where people have to duck under it?
L: Think for a moment about how weird it would be for someone from the 1300s to walk through a modern building. What are all these cords that look like tree roots? Why are there bulges in the ceilings that burst into light? The little squares on the wall with holes in them that are in every single room? It would all seem so strange and foreign. What’s that quote about technology being indecipherable from magic?
A: Probably a good analogy! I so look forward to learning more about Urithiru!
Fabrial Technology & Spheres
The Fused have a second metal I find fascinating—a metal that conducts Stormlight. The implications for this in the creation of fabrials are astounding. The Fused use this metal in conjunction with a rudimentary fabrial—a simple gemstone, but without a spren trapped inside.
How they pull Stormlight out of a Radiant and into this sphere remains baffling. My scholars think they must be employing an Investiture differential. If a gemstone is full of Stormlight—or, I assume, Voidlight—and that Light is removed quickly, it creates a pressure differential (or a kind of vacuum) in the gemstone.
This remains merely a theory.
A: Last week, Navani talked about a metal that blocks Shardblades (presumably both kinds) and resists being Soulcast. This week, it’s a metal that conducts Stormlight—which, from context, none of the others do. This combination of epigraphs makes me reasonably certain that these are “god metals”—metal made of the solid form of Investiture from a specific Shard. While I don’t have much evidence for which is which, here’s a loosely-held working theory for you: Shardblades are made from Tanavastium (or whatever the right name would be for Honor’s metal). The blocking/non-Soulcasting metal are Raysium, resisting the power of Honor. That would make the conducting metal the one we don’t have a name for—the solid Investiture of Cultivation.
One drawback to this theory is that the bonding spren, the ones that form Shardblades, aren’t 100% Honor, so far as we know. Is it possible that the Shardblades are made from Adonalsium(ium)? I don’t know what we’d call that metal, but we know that Adonalsium’s Investiture is … well, more present on Roshar than it is some other places. If this is the case, then I’d suggest that the blocking/non-Soulcasting metal is from Honor, and the conducting metal is from Cultivation, meaning we have yet to see the effect of Odium’s metal. (Or, we may have seen it and just not recognized it as a god-metal yet.)
Theories? Arguments? Other clues I’m missing?
We’ll be leaving the speculation to you in the comments, so have fun and remember to be respectful of the opinions of others! Also, when you disagree, please make sure you argue the ideas and don’t attack the person. No one likes it when the moderators are forced to turn on post approval.
Alice is pleased with the outcome of the Dawnshard novella-turned-novel. Those extra words, while they’re forcing extra time in the process, have made a great novella into an outstanding novel. You’re going to love it.
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Good old Kaladin
Reading this chapter and the descriptions of Urithuru, it makes me think the Sibling is Urithuru. The description sounds like a body.
Probably way off the mark though.
Thanks A&L for your analysis and commentary.
I loved this chapter!
A complete change of pace from the ones before – a personal realization rather than stormlight wide / cosmere wide consequences…
It will be interesting to see Kal back in apprentice mode (maybe he will finally grow the calluses)
Theory time: I think Skar may swear the 4th ideal out in horneater peaks before any of the others as he lets Rock tread the path he has chosen…
“Last week, Navani talked about a metal that blocks Shardblades (presumably both kinds) and resists being Soulcast. This week, it’s a metal that conducts Stormlight—which, from context, none of the others do. This combination of epigraphs makes me reasonably certain that these are “god metals”
I think the metal that blocks Shardblades and resists being Soulcast is aluminum and conducting investiture well sounds like it could be duralumin to me.
“He’d be as awkward as a horse in a uniform standing in a ballroom and trying not to step on women’s dresses.” This quote made me laugh out loud.
I guess I was wrong. I had thought the transport ship had already arrived. I do not know why. I had thought the Mink was on the transport ship all along. I guess he was one of the few (along with Navani and Dalinor) that was carried separately by the Windrunners.
Laral has two children. I wonder how old they are. Did she give birth between the end of Oathbringer and the start of RoW? If I had to guess, no. I think she gave birth before the coming of the Everstorm. We just did not see the children when Kaladin visited Heathstone in Oathbringer. I am sure Brandon has a reason for including Kaladin’s thoughts that he believes Laral is trying to hide her grief. This seemingly innocuous line will help fuel the Kaladin/Laral relationship. Count me against this relationship. If Kaladin is to find a romantic partner, I hope it is not Laral. Despite being friends growing up (or at least each of their fathers encouraging a friendship), I think they have personalities that do not make for a good and healthy relationship together.
“Disrespectful of lighteyed authority,” Hesina said, “and generally inclined to do whatever he wants, regardless of social class or traditions. Where in Roshar did he get it?” She glanced at Kaladin’s father, who stood by the wall inspecting the lines of strata.” With her succinct statement and look at Lirin, Hesina hit a major problem with both Kaladin and Lirin.
I enjoy the banter between Hesina and Syl. It is like Hesina treats Syl as her younger sister; a younger sister who she adores.
Discovering vaccines. How appropriate for the circumstances in RL.
Hmm. Here we go again. Lirin convinced only his beliefs are correct. Moreover, Kaladin deferring to the will of his father. He has to get over the need to please his father. In addition to letting other go, Kaladin has to learn to decide what he wants to do with his life; not what others want Kaladin to be.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I don’t see this as working long term for kaladin, being a healer.
if this wasn’t an epic fantasy I could easily see him being a teacher for the surgeons.
I’m happy that Kaladin has found a place “for now.” But I don’t want him to remain a surgeon, and I’m very happy that he’s not all happy with it either. I also don’t think this is going to last. Dalinar wants him to be an ambassador, and there is a thriving(?) group of Parshendi just waiting to be discovered by Isac. These seem to fit together too neatly to be coincidence.
It’s a reference to a Christopher Anvil Patrol story? OK, probably not, but in one of them people keep braining themselves on an inexplicable tube running right through the center of their Patrol ship, which they never do get an explanation of.
I still don’t see why people are denying that the Investiture-blocking metal is aluminum, when we know aluminum does that.
The Shardblades are certainly a god-metal. I would argue that they are all Tanavastium or [name of Cultivation’s Vessel]ium, or an alloy of the two, because the spren are their offspring (Splinters). They’re all somewhat similar because the spren are/were imitating the Honorblades, which are not sapient or made of Cognitive entities, and which would thus be pure Tanavastium.
I predict that Kaladin’s surgery career will last part of one book before he goes back on “active duty” in some capacity. Maybe most of this book, but not past the end. I’ll be happy to be wrong, because that would be an interesting story to read (since I have confidence in Sanderson’s telling).
Phooey! Where’s my Oroden fix?
Hesina is a wonderful human being, and Kal’s parents’ banter is so nice to see again. Love it.
Vaccines!! Yay!
Agreed.
A+L worded it all well about Lirin’s reaction to Kaladin’s news… it hurt me, with Lirin feeling vindicated and not even attempting to consider looking to understand his son and realize Kaladin is feeling broken inside, and Kal begrudgingly agreeing to his father “being right” as that’s the position he’s been pushed into. “I told you so” is never a good look on anyone.
Syl put a rat in his boot..
.. she really put a rat in his boot because it fit so well… 
she’s amazing. Bless you, Syl.
I also loved seeing her excitement showing them around, so infectious!
Oh.. please, let this be true.
I immediately assumed this was a Rosharan ‘mail chute’ that was used when the tower was running to quickly send messages through the tower.
On the question of metals at the end, I thought it was pretty clearly Aluminium. I’m not sure what the policy here is on Cosmere wide information (I’m guessing it’s fine if you’re talking God Metals) but we know from other books that Aluminium resists all forms of investiture not just specific shards. There’s also a confirmed WoB that Aluminium resists Shardblades. Though it has been implied that enough investiture can cut through it. Nightblood? The obvious follow up question is how did anyone on Roshar get aluminium? Since extracting it required technology that as far as we know is beyond Roshars current technology levels.
I’m pretty sure the metal from last week was aluminum. I have no idea what this metal in this weeks epigraph is, however. Maybe nicrosil? Or whatever the one that can store investiture is.
Good chapter! I do wish Kaladin would have had at least some ideas about what he wanted to do by now – what has he been doing with all this time? He saw Vasher and that was all we were shown, right? I’m a bit disappointed he didn’t have other thoughts as to what he’d like to do, and now seems to be getting pigeonholed by his dad into being the surgeon’s apprentice again.
I should note though I saw a typo when they were talking about the green stata. – “Makes the ston turn that shade.”
Ston = stone.
Not surprising to see Kaladin end up with Lirin in Urithiru, though I was hoping for him to take the strategist role for radiant tactics. His permanent position in Urithiru may be setting it up for a fight there with singers planning a secret attack there. I think we will end up watching Kaladin defending the tower and potentially leading to his next ideal.
Lirin doesn’t like who Kaladin became, and it really shows in his interaction. You can love someone without liking the choices they made. Lirin never liked seeing his son as a “killer”, and I found it very believable that he doesn’t see the struggle in his son, which stem from Kaladin’s love of the fight as Zahel observed in past chapters. I expect we will see more philosophical debate between the two.
That was an interesting chapter.
I don’t think I agree with Lyndsey over Lirin being emotionally abusive nor do I agree Lirin puts too much pressure on Kaladin when Kaladin ended up being able to become a soldier despite Lirin’s grievances. Sure, he does not approve, he gives his son the silent treatment, but Kaladin had the freedom to choose even if his father didn’t agree with his choice. This is a lot more than some people get: there are some characters who never got to make a choice and were shoehorned into roles, no matter what they wanted. I absolutely love the theme of pressuring families, but I honestly do not find Lirin/Kaladin is a good example of this. It might be where Sanderson is going, but quite frankly, Lirin, at the very least, openly loves his son and isn’t shy to voice it out. He even told teenage Kaladin he could take up the spear even if he disagreed with it. This would feel forced to me. Lirin is obviously not being abusive, he obviously loves Kaladin, but yes he has his blind-sight, but I mean, he does love his son. It is so much more than other father/sons relationship we have in the story!
On Dalinar wanting Kaladin to be ambassador, well, it’s Dalinar. He loves and respects Kaladin, so he sees him taking up all of the more important roles. Kaladin is basically the son he always wanted, the one that doesn’t have to struggle to be honorable at all costs and who’ll accept the codes without needing to make an effort. The one who’s a Radiant in an order Dalinar approves of. I find it plausible Dalinar would look past Kaladin’s weaknesses to want to give him an all-important task. Dalinar no longer wants Adolin doing important tasks because he no longer sees Adolin as honorable, hence he has disqualified himself from being important and worthy as per last week when he was shoved out of the meeting so the real important people could talk. This is a very… Dalinar problem.
I’ve always thought the blade of the knife used to kill Jezrien was made from Odium’s godmetal…I do think it’s possible these two metals are Tanavast’s and Cultivation’s. Maybe Shardblades are made from the mix of Honor and Cultivation’s godmetals (rather than Adonalsium) and the other metals are pure forms of their godmetals.
Alternative theory – we know that the Fused are interested in collecting Shardblades/Plate (as from Graves and Moash) but we are yet to see them use any. Is it possible that they reshape them somehow? The whole Stormlight-draining thing reminds me of how Shardplate absorbs Light (particularly the Arena scene when the helm sucks up Kaladin’s Stormlight).
I am hoping working with his father leads to Kaladin saying the 4th ideal.
Also, when did Hesina become a geologist, recognizing the presence of specific metals in the rock composition?
Is Urithiru itself mutable? When the Sibling went to “sleep”, did the tower freeze in its current form, with all the oddities the inhabitants see now?
Surely the metal which blocks shardblades is simply aluminum?
The metal conducting stormlight reminds me of ett-tech from Era 2. I’m not sold that it must be a godmetal.
Kaladin moving back in with his folks. Storming millenial.
Urithiru is such a… trying to think of the proper word. Fantastical, alien place. Imagine being a regular villager and then moving to a tower in the sky where it’s easier to cook food with magic than firewood.
Bizarre theory about Urithiru: It could… shift. I think doors could open and close, shafts could be set up for transfer, etc. I think the pits that go down 30 feet, the tube in the middle of the wall, the rooms you can barely peek into, were all a result of whatever happened to the Sibling, happening while the building was in “motion”. Most rooms would stay static most of the time so most of it just looks normal, but things would adapt as the residents needed, and then when something happened it all froze like that. Just my crazy theory with no basis.
As for Lirin… nothing but his own pride kept his family in harm’s way. He deliberately let his family stay in a place where the ruler wanted his family dead, ultimately leading to the death of his son. Even if his intentions were noble, he chose the benefit of the villagers over the actual lives of his own family. He could have gone anywhere. Hundreds of towns have no surgeon at all; why did those residents not deserve to have a healer? He stayed for his own pride, and it got Tien killed. I agree that he’s pretty well-written, but Lynn is right. He is a stone. He decides he knows what’s best for everyone, and he refuses to see any evidence to the contrary. I do sorta feel like “emotionally abusive” is perhaps a bit of an extreme way to describe it, but it’s absolutely that style of thing to a very damaging degree.
@8 I agree. I think it’s cool that Kaladin knows field medicine but I want him to become a soldier again.
I hope that when the singers attack Urithiru and Kaladin will swear the 4th ideal. I want him to still train in his free time but I hope he starts going on missions again.
This chapter didn’t work for me. The background details were interesting but Kaladin’s POV didn’t really add any extra spice. It just felt dry and bland to me.
Hopefully the next and final preview chapter ends things with a bang!
Spoiler for Mistborn 3
The blocking metal is probably aluminum, and the sucking metal is probably duralumin, since we already know aluminum blocks Nightblood (who’s way more powerful than a regular shardblade) and there seem to be parallels with Allomancy with the metals we’ve seen so far.
I don’t think Lirin is abusive. Of course, it’s important to support your children, but there is a big difference when the child is doing something completely against your personal beliefs, like warfare. Lirin was disappointed when Tien didn’t want to be a surgeon, but he wasn’t angry because Tien wasn’t putting more people in a hospital. Maybe he’s not very understanding, but Kaladin has his own issues with that. Besides that, Kaladin is good at it, and this is the best way to protect without fighting. Forgive Lirin for being enthusiastic. How would you feel if your kid came home from war, moved in with you, furnished the latest equipment and books, and told you they needed a job? Kaladin was going to ask anyway.
Also, anyone know where to get Dawnshard ebook if we forgot to do the kickstarter?
@25 Chuck – Brandon said about Dawnshard e-release in a Facebook post: “Once we confirm they have it, we’ll put it up on the Ebook websites for sale, so you can grab a copy if you didn’t do the kickstarter. We anticipate doing this before Rhythm of War comes out.”
@25 Chuck. I agree with you on Lirin! Lirin is allowed not to approve of certain choices and yes, he has his own blind sights, but he so openly loves Kaladin and he does want his good. I was so surprised at hearing so many readers call Lirin abusive… Dalinar is abusive, Dalinar is the one that never let his son make a choice in his life, but Lirin, while needlessly antagonist about it, has never done this. And unlike Dalinar, I do get how much Lirin loves his son. It basically pores out of the chapter! So I love Lirin, I find him such a realistic father. He’s not perfect, he has some growth left to have, but he is trying, he does care for his son’s well-being, but he isn’t purposefully being emotionally cold, abusive, and downright unloving towards his children. He also never lied to Kaladin. He is not blameless, but he remains a genuinely good person.
Side note, I am curious as to why the thread is being moderated… before any comments were even issued. Will this be a regular occurrence?
Once again, the bizarre nature of the tower’s layout is emphasized. I’m reminded of Elantris, where the city’s strange layout is similarly remarked upon, and then at the end it turned out that the entire thing was one big Aon, with the implication being that the rest of the city’s structure was the details of the “code” of the “Elantrians program”. Can’t help but wonder if something similar is happening here.
The three-way banter between Syl and Kaladin’s parents was probably the best part of the chapter.
Kharbranth has discovered vaccinations? Oooo! Details please?
Oh wow… that ending! They’re setting Lirin up for some massive disappointment. Lirin seems to think that Kal’s “come around,” that he’s going to finally stop being a soldier and become the surgeon he always should have been. He still doesn’t get that Kal is both and needs to be both, and I don’t feel like the plot is going to be particularly accomodating to his fantasy of having his son just set that aside and join him in the family business.
I’m with those people that think aluminum and duralumin. I do think that the Shardblades are composed of Honor’s investiture, but don’t think we’ve seen any of Cultivation’s. Her magic and metal has been so absent that there has to be a distinct reason that would be revealed later. Maybe that’s what’s helping bind Odium?
@@@@@ 22 Bob – ettmetal is actually a godmetal.
@@@@@ 17 Gepeto
I agree with you on the emotional abuse. I think Lirin would have to be a lot more “constricting” for me personally, but I understand completely where Lyndsey is coming from. I don’t agree that Kaladin is the son that Dalinar always wanted. I think Radiance has nothing to do with the way that Dalinar sees Adolin nor has he ever given that inclination that it does.
Hello, all–the Tor.com/Macmillan offices are closed today, and we’re scheduling fewer posts than usual this week in general in light of the election. The moderators will be checking in to publish comments periodically throughout the week, and appreciate your patience over the next few days.
I’m in the aluminum/duralumin camp.
Re: godmetals/shardblades:
Since godmetals are named after the vessels of the investiture they are made out of and spren are sentient investiture, I would propose naming the metal of shardblades after them. E.g. the Sylblade being Sylium.
I’ve thought for a long time that Lirin would become a radiant and be able to help out in a greater capacity. Even when we found out that he had stolen the spheres I had that thought. Now I am reminded of when children realize that their parents views aren’t always the right answer for everybody. Imperfect people can still become radiant (obviously) but I’m no longer as certain Lirin will become one.
On a different note, having Kaladin stay and learn surgery will be impactful in many ways, if he sticks to it or not. From previous chapters it seems Taravangian will be how the Fused attack Urithiru and having Kaladin around is always a good sign( regardless of his slip up). I’m hoping that’s it’s how he makes progress towards the fourth ideal.
This chapter makes me feel like Kaladin is going to explain to his father how he ACTUALLY became a Knight Radiant, which will change their relationship forever. See, the way Kaladin became Radiant was by protecting slaves on bridge runs, doing field medicine for men who everyone else gave up for dead. Giving up his rations to feed them, creating community and bonds among people who had nothing but hatred, pain, and bitterness in them. Lirin needs to know that his son became something more because of what his parents taught him, not because he killed well, and he needs to accept Kaladin as he is. He absolutely needs to stop seeing Kaladin as a ‘killer’ because he’s defended the lives of those he cares for with violence. Lirin needs to break down emotionally in front of Kaladin over what was done to his son, and Kaladin needs to see his father’s heart of stone truly crack for him, and finally accept him. This is the road to the 4th Oath IMO.
Kaladin would make a better ambassador than you seem to think. We don’t always get others thoughts on Kaladin but it is clear most people he interacts with look up to him. He draws people to his cause. He finds commonality of purpose with them. These are all good traits in an ambassador. Just think back to Adolin’s reaction to Kal returning with the wall guard in tow in Oathbringer. “Of course he brought an Army” (Paraphrasing, possibly) when you send Kaladin to a group of people you want on your side he is probably coming back with them on his side.
Why, oh why did they take the Fourth Bridge to Narak instead of Vedenar? They literally had to circumnavigate Kholinar and pass through enemy territory. Even if they suspected Taravangian would have betrayed them in Jah Keved, at least that would have forced him to play his hand if he wanted to intervene.
I agree with Dee — I think working with his father will lead him to pledge the 4th ideal: accepting that he can’t save everyone.
About Dawnshard.
In his last Signing A&Q (#21) on his Youtube page, Brandon said he expected it out last week, but his transcript went 5,000 words long, and that causes some delays in publishing. As such, he stated that it should be out this week.
And yes, it should be available for purchase everywhere.
Vaccines!!
I also was thinking along the lines of something like duralumin for the metal.
I do not think Lirin is abusive. I had a rocky relationship at times with my mom growing up (and I also have a difficult relationship with one of my sons) although we’ve resolved that. Mistakes were made, and those mistakes did have consequences. But I would not say I had an abusive childhood at all – the security and foundation of love was there, but not all people are good parents (or good parents to specific kids) due to personality and temperament issues.
Lirin has a pretty stiff personality (although I do appreciate his humor) and in some ways he and Kaladin are so alike they butt heads. I do think he’s making big mistakes in how he treats his son’s decisions, but it’s also his right to be unhappy about them. I’m hoping there will be at least some catharsis about this as the story progresses.
I’m going to miss these discussions when the book comes out ….
I think that part of what will help Kaladin repair himself (if at least for the ptsd, if not the other issues) is time with his parents (and his brother!) Its time for some good ol’ chicken soup from mama, etc.,
He’s so willing to confront his enemies, he needs to learn how to confront himself and his father/parental expectations. This will help him grow as well.
My guess is this will take a small part of his plot in the book figuring out what he wants to do overall. An ambassadorship might not fit his style, but it also might help him grow. If its to a place that “makes sense” for him, i.e., that has special purpose (i.e., with the Spren or with the Listeners), it might truly allow him to shine (i.e., some of diplomacy is the leadership that Kaladin has had for ages). I don’t know if this is what he will end up doing, but it does make sense as well.
@Gepeto, I dunno, Old!Dalinar has a complex relationship with his kids but for me, it would be clear as a father, he wants both kids happy, and expects them to do great things (i.e., not that they aren’t already doing that in his eyes, at this point in their lives). I just reread the scene, early in OB, where D encourages Renarin to find out what he can do, he’s just so positive and encouraging for both selfish (radiant) but also parental bonds with his kids. For both kids, I see D. as doing better than Lirin here, who, unfairly but also understandably, sees K. with such potential as a surgeon, that he wants K. to continue. Not only has K. advanced in his medical skill set, i.e., due to battlefield medical skills, but he was already truly superb in it before he had left his parents. So for Lirin, he feels this might be the time that K. does what L. hopes will help him, but L. has yet to understand, because K. hasn’t told him, that he never truly wanted to be a surgeon either.
K. has to tell him, especially as according to his thoughts here, he knew his father was going to misinterpret the juxtaposition as K’s heartfelt gift to the L. (the surgery) and the info about K’s retirement from the military.
It is true that A and D’s relationship is changing as well, and thus is quite charged at the moment, but parental/kid relations change all the time, especially as the kid starts becoming their own person.
#20, @Brian:
We know basically nothing about Hesina’s background, except one WoB that I’ll spoiler-protect:
She has lighteyed ancestry.
#22, @Bob:
So Dalinar?
Seriously, we had Shallan introspecting about her need for a non-destructive father figure. I think fatherhood might just be a theme, and here we have Kaladin’s real dad and substitute dad (Dalinar even calls him “Son”) showing both similarities and some differences.
If I’m right about the theme, expect a Shallan pregnancy in this book, so Adolin gets to be on that side of the relationship. Notice also that Dalinar and Navani are raising Gavilan. Maybe the theme is parenthood more generally?
Hah! Lirin is like Dalinar, but the anti-Blackthorn. The Blackthorn was too obsessed with killing, Lirin is too obsessed with healing. He’ll be the Nightwatcher’s Bondsmith!
If the 4th ideal is going to be something like: I will accept that I cannot save everyone, or that I will accept that I cannot save those that make their own choices, then Kaladin apprenticing to Lirin again may teach him this lesson because Lirin has not learned this lesson himself. He thinks that Kaladin’s occupation is his choice to make, that he is right. Lirin ignores that Kaladin is his own person, and responsible for his own actions. Kaladin’s realization of Lirin’s mistakes may cause a breakthrough for himself.
@35 John,
yeah, I agree totally, that’s even what I was trying to get at
Lirin is such a believable character. And the point by Lyndsey really hits home. The way Lirin treats Kaladin is no different than what any disapproving fathers do to their children, thinking they know better. All it does is create a maladaptive cognitive schema, sort of relationship where the child would crave the parents’ approval, all the while showing rebellion in charting their own paths, but being maladjusted to their chosen path, the way Kaladin is.
I wouldn’t go so far as calling it abuse, but it surely is reminiscent of the father son relationship dichotomy I’ve witnessed, including mine. Kudos to Sanderson for creating such a believable representation of a non-abusive but stubborn modern parent.
This was easily my favorite chapter so far, I love Syl interacting with Kal’s family, really just Kal’s family in general. I hadn’t actually made the connection that Lirin might have been emotionally abusive to Kal, which does spoil the fun of their interactions a bit, and his reaction to Kal’s retirement is definitely a sign that even if that’s not the case, he doesn’t understand his son well enough to truly be there for him when he needs it, and I’m not sure you could call that much better.
As for these strange metals, I definitely don’t think the first metal is aluminum; they know what aluminum is, I feel like Navani would have been able to connect the dots if it is. The metal that blocks Stormlight being Odium’s god metal definitely makes sense, and I recall a WoB where he describes the Honorblades as being made of Tanavastium, and I can see there being a sort of connection between how well a Shard/Honorlade’s metal can hold onto stormlight and how well the wielder can hold onto stormlight (with Radiants holding it better because their Spren can do so naturally). But part of me wonders if one of these metals, or more of them we haven’t seen yet, could be a god metal from one of the other shards Odium has killed, and their use is limited because he only has a relatively small amount.
I thought a popular theory was that the knife Moash used to kill Jezrien was made of Raysium. This makes me think the Stormlight conducting metal is Raysium. This would fit with Odium’s arc words of “Give me your Passion”, only in this case he is taking your Stormlight.
@32 That wouldn’t work particularly well, because you only give two things different names if they’re distinct from one another. We know that the forms of the Shardblades all tend to be unique, but we have no indication that every one is made from a different metal; all the information we do have seems to say the opposite.
Personally I’m in the “alloy of Honorium and Cultivatium” camp, but not particularly firmly.
@34 Awesome theory! I’d love to see that scene, and hope it’s in the book!
Ever since the first time Hesina and Syl interacted I have been wondering what their relationship looked like. I now think Hesina treats Syl like Syl is Kaladin’s 11-12 year old daughter. Old enough to understand things about the adult world and make surprising insights but still naive about it at times. If you model on the Single father, pre-teen girl, grandmother on to the three of them I think it works.
Interesting discussion they had about the strata, does Hesina have a background in geology that I missed?
@43 ooh, I like the narrative possibilities of that. And as others have pointed out, there are some parallels here with Adolin and Dalinar.
@29 – Eesh, your comment is kind of a huge spoiler for Elantris. Could you block it, perhaps?
@30 – I am aware. I didn’t want to go into greater detail because, well, spoilers. I had hoped people who have read the books would understand without me having to spell it out. I know ettmetal is harmonium. The various tech of it, like how it can be used to power the lights in the Soverign temple, does not all appear to be harmonium. This implies, to me at least, that there are other metals with unique reactions to Investiture like how aluminum simply blocks it.
Re: Kaladin the Ambassador. I mean. He’d be an unconvential ambassador, but used properly an effective one. He’s polarizing but still a natural leader, and frankly the greatest thing he brings to the table is his reputation. 85% of Dalinar’s politicking comes from his reputation as the Blackthorn, so of course he’d recognize the potential of the Stormblessed.
The bit about Teft not leading the wind runners made me wonder if there will be a Moash vs wind runner battle in which we see Moash kill someone we know with some kind of “Kaladin isn’t here to protect you now” vibe. Dunno if Moash had the same kind of bond or respect for bridge four members other than Kaladin?
IMHO, the metal blocking shardblades was an alloy of aluminum, and this new metal is either chrome or nicrosil. The Fused are using rythms corresponding to the metal to activate investiture-sucking – Leshwi was humming when she was doing it to Kaladin. And, of course we know that allomantic metals produce distinct rythms when burned.
Concerning Rock – does this mean that Scar and Drehy are gone for this book, too? Given what I suspect is going on on the Horneater Peaks, that would make sense, but you’d think that somebody would notice that the 2 of only 50 full Windrunners, one of them the new field commander, have vanished without trace and investigate. I hope that we aren’t getting yet another of the instances where people aren’t reacting believably because revelations need to be saved for another book. Oh, and what about their squires? Have they been left behind or can they easily transfer to another knight for a time?
I find the use of expressions like “plus” and “clued in” somewhat jarring in SA setting.
A nice reminder that Taravangian’s hospitals continue to do genuinely great work, despite the other use that he put them to. OTOH, it is also easy to see how Raboniel with the help of a few human minions could use this new invention to spread some terrible plague among the Coalition.
So, now we have numbers on some other Orders – 50 Edgedancers and only 3 Truthwatchers. Hm… these spren seemed to be really game to bond, despite Nale’s persecution of their humans, so why are there so few? Do either of these Orders normally have squires? Or is it that nobody in them yet reached the 4th Ideal, which seems to be when the Orders other than the Windrunners can get theirs? Do Edgedancers preferentially remain put and not come to Urithiru? This supports my conviction that the Shadesmar mission will be about more than just honorspren.
Lirin… I really hated how his reaction to Kaladin’s enlistment was “How can you do this to me!” And how he had nothing to say to Tien, despite massively contributing to his younger son’s unhappy fate. And he _still_ doesn’t seem have accepted his share of the blame for what happened. In fact, while I am glad that Kaladin got to enjoy the company of his parents here, I feel somewhat uncomfortable about Tien’s apparent erasure. And of course Lirin is completely deaf and blind to Kaladin’s feelings yet again, both when he fails to have a rewarding reaction to all of his son’s hard work to please him and how he forces Kal into agreeing that his father had been right all along. I felt massive foreboding at the end. This isn’t going to work – and not just because of the impending attack. I like Hesina, but I wish she’d stand up to her husband more.
I also kinda hoped that Jasnah would consult Kaladin about her anti-slavery legislation and involve him in the wrangling of the Highprinces to accept it. That this could have been Kaladin’s interim job. I am not a shipper at all, I hasten to add. It just makes logical sense to involve prominent people with the experience of being enslaved into proceedings. And I like to see our main Radiants working together and learning from each other.
Concerning hereditary offices – at least in exile the right of movement will be easy to excercise, so conspicuously bad administrators are likely to find themselves without people in a hurry and drop in rank accordingly.
Oh, and it seems that any ideas about Laral/Kaladin ship were also dispelled. She was actually attached to Roshone?! What? That’s going a bit too far into arranged marriages always working out, IMHO.
While I’m always excited to see new discoveries, I am also a bit worried vaccines will be less beneficial than expected, given who rules in Kharbranth. Especially, if Taravangian starts plotting with Raboniel (who, as we know, already tried to wipe out the humans with a deadly disease).
@20 Brian,. I love the idea of Hesina as ‘geologist’. Maybe she’ll be the one who finally figures out how to make the tower function. I can see her interacting regularly and becoming bff with Navani. Laral will probably be part of that relationship too and all 3 can gossip and discuss Kaladin!
I really like the idea of Kaladin going back to surgery. Yes Lirin may be a little tactless in pushing Kal into what he wants for his son, but at the end of day even Kaladin recognizes that that’s the best of his current options. Going back to surgery and finally becoming a surgeon and no longer an apprentice will give Kal closure to that part of his life and he’ll be able to move on. I think interaction with his family and the love from his parents will help him get through his depression. I am so loving the book so far. It’s absolutely amazing!
Interesting Chapter.
I believe Urithiru IS the third sibling and she’s slumbering. The ducts are all veins / vessels. We already have enough evidence of structures similar to heart / brain from OB.
I think Kal’s time with his parents as surgeon will be a good resting place for him. He gets to share his burden of past with his loved ones. He may finally get callusses which he desperately needs to be a good figher.He also heals in the presence of loving family( His mom and Syl combination is the best ). I think lirin will also break after hearing kaladin’s story
Overall a short and sweet chapter. I always have been biased with kal’s chapters though :P
regarding the new metal:
“When used as a hemalurgic spike, nicrosil steals investiture.” – Coppermind
Sounds familiar right? I think the weapon works on the same principle, making it a combination of Hemalurgy to steal the storm light and a gem to store it.
@35 Is there anyway to upvote a post, because I absolutely loved this post as a Kaladin fanboy.
This chapter though did not feel like usual Kaladin chapter for me. Felt Kaladin was put into someone else’s chapter. Nothing negative but just an observation.
Loved the family(ofc syl is included) interactions.
Reading the comment by Hesina on Kaladin casually using firstnames for Navani, I would really like to see them f2f interact with the rest of the crew (Adolin, Shallan, Dalinar) on screen and talking about Kaladin obv. Lirin cant be anything other than proud of his son then.
Lirin Could be the one to bond with the siblin
AndrewHB @7 –
It was actually spelled out, but so casually and minimally that it was really easy to miss. Chapter 16, Navani’s POV:
So, yeah, they brought the Mink along on the early flight, but that’s the only place it’s addressed specifically.
Carl @10 (and others)
No one is denying that possibility – but until we know for sure, it’s much more fun to speculate. Also, we don’t know that “it resists Soulcasting” is applicable to aluminum. As I suggested last week, it’s possible that while you can Soulcasting things into aluminum, it’s much harder to Soulcast aluminum into other things. It’s also possible that “a metal which resists Soulcasting” is a hint to the reader that this is something other than aluminum.
Also, Heat @46 makes a strong point: Navani already knows what aluminum is; they have it in use on Roshar. It could be an unfamiliar alloy of aluminum… or it could truly be something they’ve never seen before. Basically, until/unless Sanderson confirms it as aluminum, it’s best to keep an open mind about it.
Hmm @38 – Heh. From beta to gamma, there are an additional 12,000 words. Just sayin’…
Gizmo Pepper @40 –
So am I! This part, where we can only discuss what we already know, is so much fun! FWIW, we’ll continue the chapter-by-chapter discussion, starting in January; by that time, of course, most people will have read the entire book, so the context changes, but we’d love to have you come join us then! (And in the meantime, we’re going to take December to do a group read of Dawnshard, so… y’all are heartily invited to get involved there!)
Re: typos – Yes. We know there are typos. This is the text as it was before the gamma read. We know. These typos have been found and corrected long since.
I don’t think the metals are aluminum (or duralumin) because they are already aware of aluminum.
In chapter 2 or 3:
@10, @33:
I was thinking along the same lines…Kaladin will be in Urithiru doing his own thing w/ Lirin, and be the primary Radiant on-site when the Fused attack (and hopefully save the day). Might that be when we see “real” Shardplate form for the first time on screen?
I think it’s a stretch to call Lirin emotionally abusive – he’s certainly not the greatest father but I think there has to be room for people simply being, despite their best efforts, not tremendous parents before we pathologise that into abuse.
That said, it was frustrating and even painful to see him absolutely fail to notice Kaladin’s distress. He’s a man with a very fixed point of view about what’s right. As it happens, I don’t disagree with his *beliefs* – the Alethi obsession with war and class is bad! It’s destructive, murderous, foolish and holds back the whole world. It must be very hard to live in that society with those beliefs.
It must be harder to see one son killed by that obsession, and the other become part of the military himself. Nonetheless, being blind to your son’s distress is a terrible thing, and I hope they’re able to reach better understanding.
Honestly, to me, Lirin is a very bad and selfish father. Either directly or indirectly, he forced his opinion of being a surgeon on his son. Honestly, I hope Kal will grow out of this “trying to please my father” shit
Is it just me, or are these chapters way too short?
I am so glad that with the continuation of the series, things are staying light. The characters have time to talk and laugh. One of my big issues with long series is that they just get to a point where there’s no time to have fun anymore; it’s all doom and gloom. We’re on Book 4/5 and still getting the quips and talking, so I am very happy with that.
I am not happy with Lirin. I don’t think he’s emotionally abusive, but he is emotionally not observant, which is the polite way of saying he’s a storming idiot. Dalinar is falling into the same traps Lirin is; they’re pushing Kaladin to be what they want rather than what he needs. I do think Kaladin needed a step away from fighting, but they’re making it out to be a permanent action, which is so so wrong! You cannot remove a person from their purpose, and Kaladin’s oaths very clearly outline that purpose. Yes, there are different ways to protect others than through fighting, but Kaladin’s role has always been to fight. The problem isn’t that Kaladin is fighting; the problem is that he isn’t fighting for himself.
I honestly think the next oath he takes will need to involve his own safety. Something along the lines of, “I cannot protect others if I don’t protect myself.”
I need Adolin or one of Bridge Four or Syl to give Lirin the verbal smack down. Until Lirin recognizes Kaladin’s strengths and accepts him for who he is, I don’t think Kaladin can heal.
I don’t think being a surgeon ever made Kaladin happy. Even when he made his final decision as a teenager to become one and go train in Kharbranth, it was more because he wanted the education so he could hold his own against lighteyes than because he wanted to be a surgeon. We’ll see. But I was hoping for ambassador– that would have been a fun read, given his view of it being like a horse stuck in a ballroom.
I think that the metal that blocked shard blades was clearly aluminum. A very light metal that interferes with investiture powers seems like it perfectly fits with aluminum. The assumption that the metal that conducts Storm light is duralumin is reasonable as well, but we don’t know as much about the effects of duralumin on investiture for me to say that with conviction.
@65: Impermeable_Azul, I completely agree, but it would be easier for them, and for Kaladin, if he had some positive idea of what he did want! At the moment he can’t advocate for himself because he doesn’t really have anything to advocate for.
If anything, I think Dalinar has been remarkably perceptive in taking Kaladin away from the front lines at all. Trying to force him into being a diplomat is weird (because it’s hard to see why he thinks Kaladin has the skills needed for that) but he’s not making decisions based on what’s best for Kaladin’s development into an emotionally healthy individual – he’s just trying to achieve his military goals. Presumably he thinks Kaladin’s work as a diplomat would enhance those goals somehow.
I don’t think Kaladin will end up a surgeon, but studying with his father will help him heal.
I think this arrangement will allow Kaladin to come to a place of inner peace, letting go some of his ghosts (Tien, letting his family down, disappointing his father in never becoming a surgeon), his feelings and relationship with the people of Hearthstone (including Laral), and maybe find his new true purpose in looking for ways to make the world a better place for his brother, Oroden.
I hope this arc will also get us to a place where Kaladin and Lirin finally understand each other and come to a place where they support for one another for who they really are as a person.
I don’t think Kaladin will ever be truly happy, but maybe he can find an equilibrium so the lows are not so low, if the highs are not so high (at least, that is how some of us live life).
Also, I like that they are on the 6th level, as I fear for some of them when Team Odium attacks Urithiru – particularly Lirin.
I also wouldn’t categorise Lirin as emotionally abusive. He’s stubborn, judgemental and a little too self righteous but his anti-war stance is a fundamental part of his belief system. Of course he’s going to struggle with the idea that his clever boy with all the potential embarked on a path of killing. Lirin asserted his distaste for war strongly throughout Kaladin’s childhood, just as everyone’s parents attempt to instil certain values. I completely get that, and I don’t think he needs to abandon that stance in order to accept Kaladin’s choices.
The ‘I told you so’ attitude in this chapter is annoying. A difference in viewpoints shouldn’t have impacted the level of affection he’s willing to give his son, but that’s just immature handling of the situation rather than abuse.
I do think its easier for us to set ourselves against Lirin’s treatment of Kaladin because we know how bad Kaladin has had it and we know he needs the unchanging love of his family quite badly.
I don’t think being a surgeon is ultimately right for Kal, but I think it’s an important stepping stone. I’m hopeful that the time apprenticing under Lirin and a return to his roots will be what he needs to accept all aspects of himself: the surgeon, the soldier, the slave, the bridgeman and the windrunner. Lirin may yet have things to teach him about growing callouses that will help him heal, and eventually swear the 4th ideal.
I hope we see more of Hesina and her background. In one of the flashback chapters, she was scraping crem off a building as part of her job. So she may be Roshar’s version of an architect (before she got married). Hence her knowledge of building materials and metals!!!!
@51, Bob:
Ack! I didn’t even think of that. I guess I just sorta tend to think of any book over 10 years old as being past the spoiler statute of limitations. (Especially within a fan community like this!) But yeah, there’s probably someone somewhere on here who hasn’t read it yet. I’d go back and edit that, but I don’t have a login for doing so.
Any mod feel up to spoilering my post at #29 appropriately?
I suspect that a pivotal plot point will evolve around Kaladin, Lirin, Venli, and the Fused attack. The Fused threat are not some Alethi Highlords warring because they want to move their borders a bit and grab some land. They are an existential threat to humans on Roshar, and maybe when they attack Urithiru and Lirin’s family is threatened, he will come to accept Kaladin as a soldier fighting to protect, giving Kaladin some peace of mind and let him leave surgery and move onto something else. It will also give Kaladin/Venli a chance to explore the whole enemy of my enemy is my friend thing.
Re: Hesina being a geologist. I think this is filling in some gaps about why Tien was interested in rocks. Hesina is an educated woman – maybe she has some training in geology, and when she left that to settle down with Lirin, she kept it as a pastime, passing it on to Tien. Kaladin never mentioned it because he thinks rocks are dumb, and only put up with it to humor his brother.
Looks like Ten’s rock obsession rubbed off on his family and made them all a little bit of geologists.
I think what Kaladin and Lirin most need in their relationship is to move away from debating ethics & professions and instead open up to each other about their own experiences and feelings. (I wish Lirin knew how much his words have guided and helped Kaladin.) Then they can understand that they aren’t so far apart from each other even in the ways that seem like big divides to them now, and that new understanding and intimacy can help accept the differences between them.
The descriptions of Urithiru remind me of the city of Elantris. In that book, the potential for wonder and power was always there. Certain conditions had caused it to slip into dormancy. That’s what has happened in the Urithiru tower and when things finally click into place … look out!
Dalinar isn’t very good as a diplomat himself. He just doesn’t understand the skills the job requires.
Honorblades are probably called that because they are made from Honor’s metal.
The knife Moash used to kill a herald could be like Nightblood. Did someone on the Odium side get a chance to study it before Nale got it?
The tubes could be fast ways for Windrunners to get to different levels of the tower (if they are big enough).
Will Kaladin have contact with Taravangian’s surgeons and find out about the Diagram (or the Fused attack plan)?
Lindsey. For the entire series, I have not liked Lirin but could not articulate why. When you said he emotionally abuses his own son (Kaladin), I had an epiphany. This is the exact reason I do not like Lirin. Lirin believes that because Kaladin is Lirin’s son, Kaladin should share the same likes and personality as Lirin. He belittles the choices Kaladin makes that Lirin with which Lirin disagrees. IMO, such belittlement is a form of emotional abuse. No ifs, ands or buts. My father had a similar type of personality. If he liked something, then he thought everyone, especially me (as his son) should like it as well. This was one of the major items of friction between my father and I. Moreover, as with Lirin, it was not just one statement. My Dad kept hounding me and trying to convince to do as he wanted (whether it was an activity of belief). I had two options. I either held my ground which often led to a fight. Alternatively, I would give in to my father (when I felt continuing to argue was not worth it). I see this happens to Kaladin. When Kaladin finally says he will no longer be on the front lines, Lirin equates Kaladin setting up a medical lab in his quarters and Kaladin’s desire to move into a nearby room with Kaladin agreeing to give up being a soldier. Lirin conveniently chose to ignore that Kaladin’s commanding officer ordered him off the front lines. Yet because Lirin only wanted Kaladin to be a surgeon, he stated Kaladin had “finally seen the Stormlight” and decided to give up soldiering. Rather than argue this and decide if being a surgeon was what Kaladin truly wanted, Kaladin immediately conceded to his father’s wishes.
Alice and Lyndsey. I believe Kaladin feeling he is being forced to no longer be a soldier and being forced to be a surgeon will not end well for Kaladin. Giving up being a soldier would be fine if it was something he wanted (like Kadash did). But if you force someone to give up something they want and they are not ready to give it up, there will be a part of him/her, on a subconscious level, that will not allow him/her to fully embrace his next role (in Kaladin’s case, a surgeon). Much like Teft had to look into himself and accept who he is and what he did (warts and all), Kaladin will have to accept that he is a soldier, and just as importantly, a soldier who cannot always save the lives of those in his unit or under his command. I think it will be the Fused attack on Urithiru and the fight to save Urithiru that will allow Kaladin to learn this lesson. It may take the loss of someone whom Kaladin cares about who sacrifices him/herself to save others.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
#60, Wetlandernw:
Well, Brandon did answer that question in a WoB: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332/#e9599
Is it frustrating for you as a beta reader to discuss this when you already know the answer and have read the ending?
I think Kal has to do this in order to learn to let go of what he can not fix, its a failure he has always had, I think he will finally get some peace in the fact that sometimes everyone fails, its life, and all the power or skill in the universe wont change that. Life is the battle to keep struggling even when there is no right vs wrong side to take, we must make our decisions based on our own pov and allow others the freedom to do the same, sometimes both sides are right or wrong. Not only do i think Kal will learn this, but his dad as well.
#78 AndrewHB
yea his father is doing everything he can to force him down the path he thinks his son should take. He does this from a place of love tho, he cannot understand why kal wouldn’t be happier if he listened. I kinda like this, it makes the man more real, we all have our flaws and he is just a guy with a Son he doesn’t understand, but wants the best for. Sometimes hard love is the best thing in the world, sometimes its misguided. Either way Lin is a far more interesting character because of this. We have seen the same thing with Dalinar’s relationship to his boys in Oathbringer #dadoftheyear
Where is Dawnshard?
Initial Observations:
VOTE! (For all registered Americans who have not done so already)
Syl and Hessina are a great duo. I love how they play off of each other. Also, its real cute to see Syl just mesh with Kaladin’s family. It’s basically her family, too.
Nice bit of additional info about Urithuru. I like that Brandon continues to point out that the inhabitants still don’t know certain basics about the tower, even though they’ve lived there for a year.
I respect that Lirin had questions regarding his place in a world with magic healing powers, just as I like his renewed sense of purpose once Kaladin educates him on the number and availability of the magical healers. But Lirin still kinda irks me. When Kaladin tells him that he wants to be a surgeon again, Lirin seems as happy to be proven right as he is happy that Kaladin would be working closely with him again. He has never come across as someone who is overly supportive of his children or supportive of what they want when it doesn’t align with what he wants.
Less than 50 Edgedancers, and only 3 Truthwatchers?! Interesting. Especially that there are only 3 Truthwatchers, which parallels the maximum number of Bondsmiths (with both Orders making up the pupils of the Double-Eye of the Almighty). So the 3 Truthwatchers are Renarin, the Stump (from Edgedancer) and whomever Ym’s spren decided to bond with next?
Not my favorite chapter, but there were definitely some interesting tidbits in there. 2 more weeks!!!
mixed emotions about this chapter… mainly because I feel a lot for Kaladin and his relationship with his father. Never once has Lirin ever expressed any pride in Kaladin overcoming so much in his life, even after finding out about being Radiant.
This hits too close to home for me in my personal life so that it makes me uncomfortable, in a good way that books should do. Just another reason that I find I identify with Kaladin.
In terms of Lirin and him paying attention, I absolutely do fault him. Emotional abuse? I definitely lean more towards that than giving him a pass saying he just isn’t observant enough. I am sorry, as a trained surgeon in the position he is in, I don’t believe he has missed that in Kaladin, instead I fully believe he expects that to be something Kaladin has to get over, much like learning callouses with patients.
At the end, it seems clear to me that Kaladin simply wants his father to communicate he is proud of him, and it is especially difficult to see and read when he has done so many things for him to be proud of him, but he refuses to acknowledge it, which I believe further contributes to Kaladin’s depression.
I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the off-hand comment from Hezina about the “iron” in the walls of Urithiru. From the chapter 11 heading, Navani says:
“An iron cage will create an attractor—a fabrial that draws specific elements to itself. A properly created smoke fabrial, for example, can gather the smoke of a fire and hold it close.
New discoveries lead us to believe it is possible to create a repeller fabrial, but we don’t yet know the metal to use to achieve this feat.”
Soooo, there is possibly iron in the walls of Urithiru. In essence, and iron cage that can create a “repeller” effect?
Considering what the Fuzed are planning, specifically Raboniel, about possibly making the Radiants’ powers inert within the tower… HOW IS NOBODY TALKING ABOUT THIS YET?! Sorry for yelling. I’m just excited. ;)
Olasunkanmi Taiwo @64. I agree with you about Lirin as a father.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
GAH! I can’t feel this is right for Kaladin but maybe it’s good for right now. Being a doctor presents the same problem as being a soldier. He can’t save them all and sometimes he will have to let one die in order to save another. Then there is war time triage which says you save the most likely to regain fighting ability over the most seriously wounded. Of course, this could also be what pushes him to acceptance.
It seems like he really should have been an Edge Dancer, that way he would both fight and heal.
Is Laran our Checov’s gun here? If Kaladin moves into rooms with his parents they will certainly be seeing each other.
Syl is fabulous as always.
I’m definitely in the aluminum camp for the blocker. Keep in mind that in OB they didn’t know the specifics of aluminum, just that Hoid gave it to them to block the Odium-spren from detecting he soulcasting. By association, I assume the transfer metal is either duralumin or nicrosil. These are all in the Enhancement quadrant of Allomancy, so it makes sense. The prefaces also seem to be going through and associating the allomantic metals to fabrial function, and there is definitely correlation even if it’s not exactly the same.
I think the bigger thing is that there’s a lot of hinting that the striata on the walls are clearly “wires” to conduct fabrial stuff/stormlight. Iron is an allomantic metal; so is copper. Most people can’t distinguish the patterns, but Shallan the artist can tell the colors apart. Most metals are gray. It’s all circumstantial at this point, but there’s a lot of eyebrow waggling.
Its odd how hesitant Kaladin is to be a surgeon, considering before Amaram conscripted Tien, Kaladin planned to be a surgeon.
I see Lirin less as abusive and more as a parent whose son went on to kill hundreds/thousands of people, and wants him to stop.
@78 I don’t see Lirin as trying to push a surgeon’s life on Kaladin and belittling him because he wanted something different, so much as resenting that the specific thing Kaladin chose violated Lirin’s sense of morality. As a dedicated pacifist, the problem isn’t with what Kaladin isn’t (a surgeon,) but rather with what he is (a soldier) being one of the worst things one could possibly choose to be by Lirin’s code.
I have not read all the comments yet, but I fell I have to get some thoughts in about Lirin (and Hesina.)
I feel many of you are too hard on Lirin. When he watched both of his sons going off to war, I imagine he thought it would be the last he saw of either of them. I don’t for one second truly believe he had any hope Kaladin could keep his promise. Oh, he would try, but there wasn’t any way that Kaladin was saving Tien. Lirin knew this, and as to his character of being able to “choose who to save,” he moved on. Harsh? Maybe, but it is his coping mechanism that he built to allow him to function as a surgeon.
When Kaladin came back, I’m sure he was still in major disbelief. But to know that his son was still a soldier, I’m sure he still felt that he would lose him in battle at some point.
Now his son is telling him he’s not a soldier anymore. Now he has hope that his son will live. Imagine if you thought a loved one was going to die, and there was nothing you could do about it, only to suddenly find they are going to live after all! This, folks. This is the journey that Lirin has been on, and where he is now. He’s at the point where he believes he will actually keep his son.
Hesina. Somebody questioned how she would know about geology. There were hints in TWoK that Hesina is MUCH more educated than the typical farm village wife. She knows a ton of stuff, folks. She made a choice, long ago, that took her away from a scholarly life to become the wife of a surgeon. I think we’ll find that she is much more like Navani and Jasnah in her knowledge/desire to discover new things than anybody ever gave her credit for in the past.
Kaladin’s choices: Kaladin, like a lot of kids, glorified the idea of being a soldier. He was being “rebellious” in talking about picking up the spear, questioning the life that his father and mother had mapped out for him. Fact is, however, that he was good at being his father’s assistant, and would have made a great surgeon. He would have chosen that, and not resented it, had other events not intervened. He made a choice that took him down a different path, not because he didn’t want to be a surgeon, but because he wanted to save his brother. The two are not exclusive! We see him throughout TWoK doing everything he could to save people. That has continued throughout the story. He IS a surgeon; just not the kind his father thought he would become. At some point, he will need to reckon with this, as will Lirin. But learning along side his father for a while longer? That will not be a bad thing, I don’t think.
Sorry if I’m stating the obvious.
Also, as for Lirin wanting to “force” his son into his profession.
This is a feudal/medieval society. It is common for children to follow in the professions of their fathers (or mothers.) Farmers kids become farmers, Carpenters’ kids become carpenters, etc.
Lirin wanting, and expecting, his son to become a surgeon is perfectly normal for this society. In our world, it has only been the last 100 years or so where it has become acceptable and commonplace for a child to do something different that a parent.
As for Lirin saying, “how could you do this to me!” He violated his principles to, more or less, steal a fortune in spheres so he could send his kid to a medical school. Now that decision was in vain, as his son is going off to war to die. Again, I think that is the real issue with Lirin. Either that Kaladin (along with Tien) would die, or become so hardened an individual that he would be unrecognizable as his son.
Sorry, I just can’t jump on the “Lirin is awful” bandwagon. I have to judge him by his culture, not mine.
The green color is an iron compound, not metallic iron. Metal compounds (as opposed to alloys) don’t have the Investiture-related effects of actual metals. For instance, sapphires and rubies are both aluminum oxide (with different contaminants) but they don’t interfere with Stormlight the way aluminum does.
Something Brandon sneaked in there that nobody has commented on: notice how childlike Syl is in the Physical realm, where in Shadesmar she was much more of an adult woman? That’s because Kaladin is stuck at the Third Oath. With each additional oath, the Nahel Bond gets stronger and the spren’s ability to think in the Physical gets better.
I liked this chapter, but Brandon needs to tone down the interior monologues. Seriously, even in chapters where something happens, we spend most of the word count reading about how the viewpoint feels about everything. That’s a valuable component, but it’s possible to overdo it.
– I loved the Hesina/Syl dynamic. I hope we get more of it.
– Hesina and Lirin do seem like they complement each other well
– Hesina and Navani as BFFs….we are reaching nerd levels that shouldn’t be possible.
– Just Hesina. God that woman is cool. Everyone she is seen with seems to be better for their association with her.
– I agree that Lirin needs the whole story. Maybe not the whole story,, but far more of it than he has. We see that Kaladin’s entire motivation for the whole series has been a more pragmatic (for Alethkar, anyway) application of Lirin’s beliefs, but Lirin doesn’t. He only sees the outward-facing soldier, the man who lives in opposition to the beliefs Lirin spent 13 (?) years instilling in him. That can’t be nice for Lirin to see, that his son has abandoned the morals he holds dear without knowing why.
Guhhhhh. Kaladin is my favorite main character, but the whole surgeon thing…yeesh. Sanderson is doing some heavy damage to my Kaladin hopes with his flop in shadesmar and now this. I figure another buildup is coming sometime. But man that is rough.
Side note- iron in the wall strata. You know what else has iron in it? Blood. Like a living thing. I sooooo hope the tower turns out to be the sibling and the radiants have to heal it. Which would lend nicely to Adolin’s sword story too.
A lot of people are angry at Lirin for not being observant of his son’s emotions, but HELLO Kaladin has been in a massive depression for months. If Lirin is at all observant, that’s what he should have noticed. Why would he not be hopeful that his son, by turning away from killing and turning to healing, would be able to shake some of what weighs him down? Wouldn’t he be reasonable in thinking that returning to his surgeon’s training might make Kaladin happier? He certainly hasn’t shown much sign of being happy as a soldier recently.
“It reminded Kaladin of days spent at the dinner table, or gathering medicinal herbs from the cultivated patches outside of town.”
I think this is a typo? The “or” should be “of”.
I love the relationship between Syl and Kaladin’s family.
@83 Stump is actually an Edgedancer like Lift
@92
I agree with your assessment of Lirin. I had a similar experience with my father, but with religion, which took a huge toll on my father for several years. Any time I bring up religion, I see him get excited for me, but for a while, he was kinda mourning the loss of the son he could’ve had. He and I have since reconciled, as we both have grown from when I revealed my lack of faith to my parents. But throughout the whole process, it never felt like emotional abuse, even if it did cause a lot of turmoil. From my perspective, Lirin’s always had Kaladin’s wellbeing as one of his goals, and seeing his son go down a path that he is convinced will only lead to misery and suffering is extremely painful to the man. He has always shown respect to Kaladin’s agency, even if he doesn’t respect Kaladin’s decision to take up the spear. He feels alienated from his son who used to have potential that Lirin feels he probably should’ve channeled better. He’s trying to come to terms with feeling like he’s failed his son, while also allowing Kaladin to live his own life. Now that Kaladin is showing openness to pursuing a different path, Lirin is elated, seeing this as a second chance to help his son “see the light”. It will be interesting, since I doubt Kaladin stays content not being in the middle of the action.
I think the time Lirin and Kaladin spend together before/during the Urithiru attack will be healing for both Kaladin and Lirin. I hope it allows them to better understand each other, but I honestly have no idea where Sanderson will take their relationship. I hope we find out more about Lirin/Hesina’s backstory to better understand his fierce anti-war stance. It will definitely be interesting to see how Kaladin’s parents/town integrate themselves into the Urithiru society.
I think Dalinar might believe Kaladin would be a good ambassador because of Kal’s reputation as the Stormblessed and one of the first Radiants. (Probably the first as far as most people know, right? I get the impression Jasnah’s been a Radiant for longer than Kal, but she’s kept her abilities on the down-low until relatively recently.)
I loved the banter between Hesina and Lirin, as well as Syl’s interactions with them. Syl is just such a joy.
The moment of empathy between Lirin and Kal when Lirin was feeling like there wouldn’t be any need for surgeons anymore was nice. I do feel a little uncomfortable with Lirin assuming that Kal agreed to become a surgeon because he realized that Lirin was right all along, but I feel like being a surgeon for a while could be good for Kal. I wonder if he’ll end up as something like a combat medic, both fighting and healing? (Or, for a more fantasy analogy, a D&D cleric.) I’m also impressed that Sanderson has made the dynamic between them so compelling. “Parent is hell-bent on child following in their footsteps” is such a common trope, but Sanderson’s got me invested in how this instance of it turns out.
Like a lot of others, I’m surprised by the low number of Edgedancers and Truthwatchers. Especially the Truthwatchers–only three! I wonder if there are fewer Truthwatcher spren overall, or fewer willing to bond with humans, or if the requirements for that bonding mean there aren’t many good candidates.
You know, based on events in Oathbringer, I think the prevailing theoretical Windrunner 4th Ideal is something like “I will protect everyone I can and let go of those i cannot”, which Kaladin wasn’t prepared to do.
Thinking about that, an overloaded surgeon is actually in the perfect position to learn and understand this. Emergency doctors have to prioritise those who are close to death. This is an oath he might be able to learn from training under his father training in surgery/medicine.
I have a hard time considering Lirin to be emotionally abusive. There’s a rather hefty line between the weight of expectation and hope and the bearing down that comes with emotional abuse. Lirin is a pacifist and healer at heart- he is morally opposed to Kaladin’s soldiering- well, he’s morally opposed to war in general. Being morally opposed to something, and attempting to dissuade someone from what you’re opposed to, is no more emotional abuse than vegans explaining why they’re vegan. I think we, as a culture, are too quick to escalate things to their more formal counterparts- normal stress to clinical anxiety, normal disappointment or loss to clinical depression, normal energy in children as AD/HD, and rather normal adherence to moral standards as abuse. None of the normal characterizations of emotional abuse- belittling Kaladin, trying to make him feel valueless, restricting access to outside resources- seem to appear. He regularly spoke of how much he valued Kaladin, and while he did attempt to encourage a career path for his child, that career path was both lucrative and safe. No good parent wants to see their children killed, and Lirin likely understands the likelihood of untrained spearmen lasting in near constant border skirmishes. I repeat- no good parent wants their child to die. Lirin seems to have approached Kaladin’s study not as a way to control him, but as a way to further his growth- which is no more abusive than a child being made to do their math homework instead of play video games. Genuinely, and I’m willing to defend that position.
In other news, I’m very intrigued to watch Kaladin’s emotional development. To watch him learn about his ability- and inability- to save others from his family and patients. I think this will be a colorful but perhaps less action packed insight into personal growth.
I’m still hoping that Hessina will turn out to be the author of the Mythica…
But regardless I just want to see them interacting with the Kholins in general, I think she’d get on very well with Navani
In regards to kaladin it can be very hard to know, at certain points in your life what to do especially after a your dream is broken. Also syl really sounds like and may become a tien like character in their family.
@78.
I never got that strong a sense from Lirin. Is he the easiest guy to get along with? Is he demanding and exacting? Yes.
if kaladin had desired to be a Potter or a farrier or whatever I don’t think lirin would have been as opposed. But kaladin wanted to be a soldier which is the antithesis of being a surgeon.
@69 yes! I see this as a bridge (ha), something to keep kaladin functional while he sorts out his shit and figures out what he really wants to do. I just hope Lirin doesn’t make that too much more painful than it needs to be. :/ that’s a silly hope, isn’t it…
speaking of lirin, does anyone have specific examples of the alleged emotional abuse? I’m not sure if I’ve forgotten it, misinterpreted or just disagree, ’cause I remembered him as just being a grouch about kaladin’s not being a pacifist, and then that chapter ending hit me right in the gut :/
I have to agree with some of the others here regarding the chapter’s comments on the architecture inside Urithiru. Kaladin’s comments focus on the arrangements and design and comment that they are reminiscent of glyphs in the wall. This feels to me like a connection to Aon magic in Elantris.
In case anyone else was curious about green iron strata, I looked it up and one possible mineral it could be is called chamosite which is an olive green iron containing mineral. Something interesting about the strata, which if it is chamosite, is that it should have oxidized to a mineral called limonite which is a yellow color. The fact that it hasn’t oxidized, again assuming that the strata is indeed chamosite, implies that something is keeping it in its current state or that there is some difference in Rosharan physics/chemistry/atmosphere etc. that prevents it from oxidizing.
Just an interesting possibility I noticed. Feel free to prove me wrong as I am not a rock doctor, geologist, or whatever you want to call it.
Coincidentally just now in my pre-release reread, OB Chapter 25: The Girl Who Looked Up
The tower is 100% the body of the Sibling. Going to be revived by a Divine Breath and bonded by, hopefully, Rlain. Maybe Navani.
Also, Kaladin for Ambassador to the Listeners.
Though I do think his time reconnecting with his parents will be good for his journey to the next Ideal.
Kaladin and Lirin are naturally going to butt heads. They are both self-righteous and stubborn to a point where it’s nearly a fault. It’s a good trait to have when one is trying to overcome struggles with near insurmountable odds but it will be uncomfortable he’s for those who do not share your worldview to remain close to you. I could hope that Lirin would be more observant of Kaladin’s emotional state but he, like Kaladin, often must be bludgeoned with those type of emotional responses to realize that he’s being insensitive. Is Lirin emotionally abusive? There are good arguments for either position, many of which have been expressed here. I’m undecided but I know that however you characterize these interactions, I don’t like it.
I like the mutable tower city theory. With the surges it should be Realmatically feasible.
Anybody else see Kaladin/ Syl mirroring his parents’ relationship? Well it’s a truism that men often marry women that are like their mothers, and a Nahel bond is in many ways a bond closer than marriage.
More on Lirin, I see a lot of folks focusing on Kaladin’s newish career choice as an opportunity for him to grow and that’s a valid observation. But I want to get that growth from Lirin even more. I want Lirin to see that Kaladin has done many things as a soldier for which Lirin can take pride in.
What’s the point of a room with just one small hole? It’s a resonator. Urithiru is a pipe organ. Or, a flute. Music Spren are the missing piece.
Wow I loved this chapter. One of my favourites so far. Such a great payoff for the flashbacks from Way of Kings. I love Lirin and the dynamic with his wife. I know you hate him all but he‘s becoming one of my favorite characters.
So many people are commenting about how the shardblade blocking metal must be Aluminum, but forget that Rosharans know what Aluminum is? They are not technologically advanced enough to get it by “usual” means, but they can just soulcast anything into aluminum, in WoR Shallan has a necklace made of Aluminum and the loanshark recognises it immediately, In Oathbringer Hoid even brought a whole lot of it to shield the soulcaster from getting detected. Since the scholars dont know what metal it is it cant be pure Aluminum. Also Rosharans tried to replicate shardplate for a very long time, the closest they got to it was a fabrial-like shield powered by stormlight.
@92 – Kaladin never wanted to be a surgeon, it’s a choice he made when he didn’t see any other way out. That’s no dedication to your chosen profession, that’s escape. Now he’s escaping again – he dreads this, he’s not happy about it. It’s the only option he sees als available to him. I don’t think it will end well.
Hi, all–we’ve had complaints about folks not flagging spoilers properly, so–please be careful about revealing spoilers from other Cosmere books (or anywhere else they might come from). Also, when you type spoilers as roll-over text, please make sure you choose both black text and black background color (or white and white–whatever makes the text unreadable). For some reason, the text keeps showing through the highlighted black bars, although we’ve fixed the instances above for now. Thanks, all!
This comment section has been so good you’ve all made me comment for the first time, I’ve really enjoyed reading along and seeing everyone else’s opinions. It’s always interesting see how other people react to things and there are some comments that after an initial read seemed really perplexing but with subsequent ones I understand a lot better. Not that I necessarily agree but it’s always good to expand ones horizons!
Now the main reason I posted is the aluminium debate. I’m coming down on the it’s not as simple as the metal in the fused weapons being aluminium. Not sure if it’s a god metal or not but it doesn’t seem that simple.
There is a WoB from the reddit discussion on this chapter (https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/jnar09/read_rhythm_of_war_by_brandon_sanderson_chapter/gb3clwc) where he definitively states that some of the metals being used by the fused aren’t aluminium but also gives a bit of an explanation on why Rosharians haven’t worked out all of the properties of aluminium yet.
Carl @79 – I haven’t been able to keep up on all the WoBs, so I wasn’t aware of that one. It still doesn’t answer why Navani, who has been using aluminum, doesn’t recognize it. So I’ll leave it open for now.
As to the potential frustration of discussing things when, as a beta reader, I already know the answers… There are some subjects I like to poke, even though I already know the answer, because I want people to be thinking about it. There are others that I poke because I don’t know the answer and genuinely want more theories. In both cases, it’s pretty much all good fun. And there are some questions that I avoid, or poke once and then avoid, because I know the answer and am too emotionally invested in the subject to trust myself with continuing the discussion before the whole book is out.
Glassneedles @121 – Thanks for that link. I’d just like to requote the last part of Brandon’s response to the “why don’t they understand it’s aluminum?” question:
That’s my whole point in keeping the theorizing alive on this subject. It’s not as obvious as some people want it to be.
@113 jdfs:
Wow, that’s a heck of a theory! I can totally see that happening… except for one detail. With everything necessary in place, if it was going to happen, why hasn’t it happened already?
@114 EvilMonkey:
Ha! I’m reminded of one of my closest friends from high school. He went off to college, found someone, and ended up marrying her, and pretty much all of us at his wedding noticed just how remarkably much she looked like his mom! He had to endure so much teasing over that! But they’ve since turned out to be a pretty good couple.
I don’t think Kal will find the 4th ideal as a surgeon. I think he’s going to find it doing what he does best: protecting! This time maybe he’ll be able to do it right. Because right now in urithuru, there’s a certain high-status child who’s a little small for his age, but full of joy nonetheless. And where do remember a child like that from in book 1? Tien! Kal failed to protect Tien but this time he will succeed in protecting Elhokar’s son. Who I do believe there is something special about. When Sanderson puts in something like a child being slow to develop once, I ignore it, when it happens twice? Some shit bout to go down. This child is about to be the next host for some kind of deity or I’m a bearded lizard.
But please Sanderson, let Kal go off in this book. He didn’t in book three and I had to wait two years. Please let Kal be the beast I know he is and give him some cool ass armor. The armor can be anything right? Please give it twin jet engines and a cup holder so that Kaladin has a place to put his Gatorade. Taking out every fused solo is tiring work and he’s going to need the electrolytes.
@@@@@125 Jordan Jones
General consensus is that the Windrunner 4th ideal is most likely about acknowledging the hard truth that you can’t save/protect everyone. How is Kaladin going to do that by successfully saving somebody?
@126: I read your question and I immediately went to, “By having to choose who to save.”
Immediate dark thought afterwards was, “don’t do this Sanderson. Don’t make Kaladin choose between Gavinor and his family.”
@@@@@127 El Cochino:
Oh crap! I hope not!
Honestly, I don’t see that happening. Brandon’s writing is more optimistic than that. He doesn’t do “grimdark,” and that’s a big part of why I like him!
I don’t know how to feel about this. It sort of implies that (short of external influence like Sja-anat corruption) spren are faultless, or at the very least faultless within the Intent of their spren type. Brandon once said that, while very rare, it is possible for a Knight Radiant to stagnate in his progression of his Ideals/Nahel bond because of his spren having difficulty growing, rather than because of the Knight.
Which leads me to believe that it is possible for an individual spren to have character/personality flaws outside of their Intent or weird magical intervention. Which, henceforth, leads me to believe that we shouldn’t blindly assume that Syl always knows what’s best for Kaladin (that she WANTS what’s best for Kaladin, yes, but that’s not enough).
@125
I genuinely laughed at this, thank you. I share the sentiment, really want Kaladin to progress but as @127 said that’s a scary situation it seems like he is gonna be put in… really hope that doesn’t have to happen
@128: It could also be trusting somebody else to protect his family while he goes off to do the “big” stuff. Or trusting that his family can protect themselves for a bit without him.
Oh, just pictured Hesina going all Molly Weasly on a Fused! “That’s my son, you (insert Rosharan appropriate expletive here)!
There’s a whole Checkhov’s armory out there at this point on stuff that could relate to the Sibling, between the rhythm/music/tone stuff swirling around Rlain, Navani, and the imminent Fused raid on the tower… all the fabrial lore and geology/architecture… plus Zahel teasing powerful off-world magic… there are a lot of ways it could go, but it’s not surprising that the human characters haven’t put the pieces together yet.
Navani seems to be missing a lot by focusing on what she knows of modern fabrial science rather than aggressively pursuing what’s going on with the spren of existing “organic” devices like (dead) shardblades, or soulcasters. What she’s doing is like talking an embalmed cadaver and thinking she can revive it by getting blood circulating the lungs pumping air… if you get really clever with how you put energy into the system and constrain how it comes out, you can get some facsimile of life, but at best a pale imitation of the real thing and will never be self-sustaining.
And I like the callout @115 about the room as resonator, or generally considering all the odd architecture from that sort of acoustic perspective. Stormlight definitely has a wave nature to it, common to a lot of (all?) Cosmere investiture, but I’d always thought of it as more like electromagnetism. Was pretty recent that we got the hint that just straight-out playing a drum can be Magic if you’ve got good enough rhythm. So the need to make the tower have particular resonances both physically to sound and “electrically” to Stormlight is a good background to escape a lazy application of the “organic=weird/random/lumpy” trope since yeah, carving out an extremely specialized pipe organ that people can also live inside might leave you with some oddities of design.
Anyway, back to my point… the lady with the fabrials and the guy with the rhythms don’t seem to have connected to share their knowledge with one another at this point, and it seems likely that it’ll take both of those at a bare minimum just to get Team Human started down the road of figuring out what they’ll need to triumph over the Fused attack.
@@@@@131 El Cochino:
“Cremling”
I remember there being a Word of Brandon that Shardblades are made of an alloy of Honor and Cultivation’s god metals. I can’t seem to find the exact one though so maybe not
Maybe Dalinar needs to create a perpendicularity inside Urithiru to get enough Investiture into those giant gems. It would be like a mega, mountain-sized blood transfusion. Maybe that’s what the sibling needs to wake up?
I want to see Kaladin and Lirin talk about the ethics of war/killing again.
Something like:
Lirin – killing is bad!
Kaladin – did I mention that a fused is single-mindedly pursuing me to kill me. What should I do? Tickle him?
Lirin – killing is bad!
Kaladin – facepalm
@134 surge_binder_:
Most relevant thing I could find would be this WOB here. There’s probably more.
Tudor @129 –
That’s not at all what I was saying or even implying, particularly if you look at the context. Lyn said that if Kaladin told Syl that her teasing was hurtful, she’d stop, and I said that if Syl was convinced that the pain she was causing was necessary for him, she wouldn’t stop. Nowhere did either of us say, or imply, that Syl would automatically be correct in her assessment. As with any relationship, Syl might be mistaken in thinking that her action (whatever it might be) would help Kaladin, but my point was that if she believed it would help, she’d do it even if he didn’t like it.
@137
Ye my bad, duly noted, to me your reply sounded like endorsement *if* Syl did that (rather than just a descriptive statement that she would), but I think I was reading too much into it.
@Tudor: not that spren as a group are flawless. That Syl, as an individual, sincerely cares about Kaladin and will never deliberately hurt him.
At first I didn’t quite like this chapter… Kal just accepting apprenticeship under his father like dust being swept under the rug didn’t quite fit, especially as we have seen Kal has resisted this since he was a young boy. Then I considered it from a narrative structure and what it may be setting up – Kal’s 4th Ideal – Which I think will be “I cannot protect everyone; and I have to accept loss” or something of a similar nature.
We see Kal in RoW as someone especially broken (more so than ever) after fearing for his Windrunners, and protecting them on the battlefield has been a huge conflict for him. One loss of a Windrunner is a failure, even considering the context of the war they are fighting; one life in the protection of Roshar (potentially the Cosmere), although sad, isn’t even a blip on the radar in the grand scheme of things.
When we look at Kal’s flashbacks, specifically the event with Brightlord Roshone losing his son, Rillir, in the Whitespine hunt. As any good surgeon would the first thing Lirin did was triage the wounded; Lirin knew he couldn’t save the boy due to how bad his injuries were and accepted that Rillir was a loss he had to accept in order to treat Roshone, who’s injuries while bad were at least manageable.
I can see Kaladin learning this kind of mind frame working with Lirin and how it will help in healing Kaladin’s growing darkness. He’s consumed by having to wear the weight of the world on his shoulders, and so focused on protecting everyone, which is something no one can do no matter how powerful they are.
Hopefully, once he’s able to have this realisation he can speak his fourth ideal and Kaladin will be back in he sky and on the battlefield knowing that “he cannot protect everyone; and will have to accept loss”.
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I somehow suspect that Kaladin will not easily fit back into the role of an apprentice under his father. He has been a leader for so long, and Lirin once again sees the opportunity to live out his own life all over again through Kaladin. That being said…
There seems to be something of a pattern in Kaladin’s story arc with regard to healing. When he stepped back from the abyss as a bridgeman, the first activity that helped him find his path was using his surgery skills to help others around him. He hardly fought until he was already saying the Second Ideal. In his low point in WoR, he didn’t dive into surgical activities, but in the weeks leading up to the attempted murder of Elhokar, Kaladin was seriously injured, could barely fight, and constantly had diagnoses and instructions running through his mind. Couching the justification to murder Elhokar in terms of removing a festering or diseased part was a very surgical way of thinking, and recognizing that Elhokar was a person who deserved life and protection rather than de-humanizing him as a festering wound was similarly very Lirin-like… these led Kaladin straight into the Third Ideal. Each of those Ideals was reached after a period in which Kaladin’s access to fighting was extremely, painfully limited. The lead-up to Kaladin nearly saying the Fourth Ideal did not fully match this pattern; he’d been somewhat painfully limited in access to fighting, but there was no matching rise in surgical thought-patterns that I recall.
My hope is that despite the struggle this experience will represent to Kaladin, acting as a healer will ultimately expose him to whatever he needs in order to take that next step, both for his own mental well-being and his advancement as a Windrunner.
Also, I notice this sets us up for a confrontation between the single-minded revenge-seeking Fused and Kaladin in the midst of people who are ill or wounded and therefore vulnerable–an opportunity for the guilt-inclined mind to beat itself up, or for the “oh, no, you don’t!” mind to resolve and overcome, or both.
I want to point out that Urithiru was not meant to be used and house your regular human but rather to be staffed by knight radiants and their squires. We know that stonewards could manipulate stone as if it was liquid allowing for small holes to be turned into entrances. The drops and vertical tube are clearly meant for windrunners to have easy access. The pipes going through the street could be used to deliver messages either through tubing or by just having spren fly/walk inside them. The tower also seems to be able to change or be shaped by a bondsmith so maybe before the sibling went to sleep it enacted this weird layout as a self defense mechanism.
As for dalinar wanting kaladin to be a diplomat, I dont really see the problem as kaladin would be more like a war advisor/propaganda tool. Dalinar is not expecting kaladin to talk about economics or peace deals, he wants a war hero that can talk about the Fused and how to beat them while pulling the aes sedai trick of “my oath doesn’t allow me to lie or be dishonorable”. Kaladin is perfectly suited for this as he is the most renowned windrunner with the most feats and battle experience. Also dalinar wants kaladin to experience the same metamorphosis he experienced. Going from battlefield fighter to a true commander able to actually direct and command a full blown army of squires and radiants.
As an aside I do not think that roshar is advanced enough in the cell theory/chemistry field for it to have early vaccines and it probably be more like inoculation/variolation rather than what we are used to in today’s (and the last 200 years) world.
@101 – Re the Stump: She is a Truthwatcher. In Chapter 104 of Oathbringer, Jasnah’s correspondence shows that the Radiant that Lift found in Yeddaw (the Stump) went to Azir so that they could catalogue what a Truthwatcher spren looked like. Jasnah used that info to deduce that Renarin had a corrupted spren in Chapter 115.
So the 3 Truthwatchers appear to be 1) Renarin; 2) the Stump; and 3)Ym’s spren’s new bondmate(?)
@32 Skih: You might be closer to the truth than you think.
@136 Mason Wheeler shared this WoB regarding what metal makes up Shardblades. Sounds like an alloy of tanvastium and [something else] that could be called the same one thing but can also be divided into 10 separate labels.
Perhaps it’s an alloy of tanavastium and (for lack of an official term) spren-stuff, where the spren-stuff label is specific to each type of Nahel spren despite the fact that the spren-stuff is, at a molecular level, made of the same “material” regardless of spren type. I’m thinking similar to how diamonds, graphite, graphene, fullerene, and coal are all different arrangements of carbon atoms. At their most basic, they are the same material. Perhaps this spren-stuff is even the same stuff that the spren are made of when they are corporeal in the physical realm but require tanavastium to fix the spren-stuff into a firm shape.
I dunno, I’m not a materials engineer, but the idea has merit.
Only reason I’m not fully in the aluminum/duralumin camp is that apparently the Rosharan humans have aluminum somehow. It’s never mentioned by name in the first 3 books but Navani mentions it by name when talking about how they use it to separate effects of gemstones for her flying ship. Not sure how they got it in the past year but that fact that they don’t recognize it makes me assume the metal isn’t aluminum.
@146 they can soulcast things into aluminum. It’s just hard to soulcast aluminum into other thing
Jasnah might not be the only one who learned from Hoid (or she told Navani about aluminum after learning from him).
@birgit, aluminum was known on Roshar before Jasnah ever talked to Wit (on screen). Shallan’s necklace, and was called, aluminum.
Re: questions about non-spoiler reviews–Alice and Paige’s non-spoiler review will be up on the site on Thursday morning; until then, let’s keep the discussion focused on the preview chapters. Thanks.
I’m interested to see how (or if) duralumin eventually gets brought to Roshar. There isn’t quite the same level of connection to metals as on Scadrial but there’s definitely a strong connection so maybe Navani will eventually get their scholars going down that avenue or maybe if Wit gives that nudge? Seems like it could be quite useful for the right fabrial use, or combined with a shardblade, or other surges? Especially when combined with a perpendicularity like Dalinar can just make to replenish investiture as needed!
Okay, so maybe not exactly on topic, but…
So STOKED to see that Dawnshard will be available to the general public tomorrow. I may be skipping the new chapter of RoW to focus on that.
Is it Tuesday yet?
OMG Kaladin’s parents are probably going to be killed in the attack. Its being set up now. And the rage, sorrow and desire for revenge is going be the cure for his battle fatigue and bring him back to his former badass self.
My theory is that Urithiru is a spaceship with all strata being electronic circuits of sorts. Maybe it had been built as part of an escape plan to another planet or return to the destroyed home of the humans or maybe this is the original means by which they came here
I want to thank Alice and Lyndsey for their great read-along articles, and I want to also say I’ve enjoyed every chapter I’ve read– though I stopped here after eighteen because I have Dawnshard to read before RoW’s release. I love Navanni as a major POV character, I can’t get enough of Kaladin and Syl, really want to know more about Hessina, looking forward to more Adolin and Shallan. This chapter a week thing has been a lot of fun.
Of COURSE Dalinar thinks Kal should be an public relations figure- Dalinar has the same problem Kaladin does, but he had to do it anyway.